Eriksonian Hypnosis - Free
Online Seminar
Training Log 1
- What is the difference between Eriksonian and Classical Hypnosis ?
- What is Rapport?
- How to Create Rapport
- How to Use Rapport : Pacing and Leading
- Pacing with Sensory Statements
- We Never Make Mistakes
- Hypnotic Utilization Example
This is the first log of free online training in my hypnotic techniques for erotic hypnosis, starting with all the basics.
Dear Mind Mistress, Thanks so much again for the NLP lesson. i learned so much more than i could if i read a book on the subject. i might not put the knowledge to use because i am submissive, but it is good to know NLP just the same. i have attached a rough edit of your training session. The most edits i made were just to make it a little easier to read. It was like putting a Quentin Tarantino film in chronological order. i hope you can use some of it. :).
Hugs, tina MM edit.txt
Thank you for the edit tina, it really helps!
Session Start: Sun Mar 27 15:08:27 2011 Session Ident:#hypnotraining [15:15]
<@Mind_Mistress> All right, 3:15, let's get started :)
First, thank you all for coming on such short notice
<gamma_> Thank Petra, she gave the heads up in the chat
<@Nadine|SYL|> and in other ways, as well
<@trisha> thank you for setting it up, couldn't do it without you
<@Mind_Mistress> All right, so what I'd like to know for starters...
who here has never done a hypnotic induction?
<shiro> I haven't.
<brooke> i haven't
<carli> i have not
<girlyguyAly> i haven't
<@miss_rhf_darkstar> well i don't do what you class as an official one
so put me down as a no
<gamma_> I have not
What is the difference between Ericksonian and Classical Hypnosis ?
<@Mind_Mistress> Okay :)
What I want to do in the little online seminar is introduce all of you to conversational hypnosis, from the ground up, starting with the basic building blocks.
Some of you will know some of this, but probably in a less formal manner. This is the kind of hypnosis created by Milton Erikson, which is used in Eriksonian hypnosis and in NLP. The advantage of it is that you can hypnotize almost everyone with it. The disadvantage is that it's often slower than classical hypnosis. Now, can anyone tell me what distinguishes Classical Hypnosis from this? .
<@Venus{SEL}> Eriksonian is more story telling
<@Mind_Mistress> That's one way to describe it, yes
<@tinavixen{JLD}> NLP is more stealth
<@Mind_Mistress> Conversational hypnosis makes a bunch of statements and asks questions. So it sounds like a conversation, and Milton was famous for using stories to do hypnosis.
<@Nadine|SYL|> basically, i think, it is that classical deliberately focuses the subject's mind, with them knowing this, which can lead to resistance
<@Mind_Mistress> Good point Nadine
<shiro> Through conversation, you can make a person focus on specific ideas and link them with others?
<@Mind_Mistress> yes shiro Classical hypnosis is what's called "directive" you give people directions, orders, tell them to do and feel things
<@PennY_Lane> or declarative
<@PennY_Lane> you're getting tired...
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes Penny, it uses declarations
<wifemartine> directing people
<@Mind_Mistress> A lot of people resent being ordered to do things though, and resist such commands even if they've paid a lot of money to get those commands
<@trisha> if i start with 'try not to think about little fluffy rainbow coloured bunnies' what form am i using?
<@Mind_Mistress> That's directive trisha, but it uses some language tricks used in NLP and Erisckonian Hypnosis .
<@Venus{SEL}> that would be a combination
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes.
They can be used in combination
The rule of thumb for directiveness is this:
The deeper in trance a person is, the more directive you get.
<wifemartine> can we disguise orders Mind Mistress ?
<@Mind_Mistress> we'll get to that wife
<wifemartine> excuse us
<@Mind_Mistress> because when you're so deep in trance you can't think, it's just easier if the hypnotist tells you what they want.
So here's an example of Classical Hypnosis:
"Your eyes are getting heavy, as you stare at the screen
and you will find yourself getting more and more relaxed with every breath..." Now, this works with a lot of people, but not all.
What's the problem with this kind of suggestions?
<wifemartine> people know it
<@trisha> too static
<@Nadine|SYL|> if that is not happening as you tell them that it is, then they would tend to wake a bit, i would think
<@Mind_Mistress> Exactly Nadine
If my eyes DON'T get heavy...
and I DON'T feel I'm relaxing with every breath...
then I lose rapport with the hypnotist...
and I think they're a sham
I'll get back to rapport in a moment
But basically, the main problem with classical hypnosis is that you can fail.
No one likes to fail
<@Petra> nope :)
<@Mind_Mistress> The subject doesn't like it, and neither does the hypnotist.
<@trisha> true
<@Mind_Mistress> You get in a situation where the subject is told that they're "resistant",
which is kind of useless.
<@PennY_Lane> and the subject can fake their responses. This is a large problem in a cyber trance
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@Mind_Mistress> Cyber trance is done for fun.
<@miss_rhf_darkstar> and experimentation reasons
<@Mind_Mistress> At the end of the day, what matters is that both people had fun. But it's better if the person doesn't fake it of course, they get a better experience
<@trisha> the subject can also truly be affected, but find themselves losing focus, which feels like a failure, and ruins the trance
<@Mind_Mistress> Right
So it's important to tell them to be honest in their response, so you can adjust to give them an effective trance
<wifemartine> or the subject is tranced but not that much
<@Mind_Mistress> Now in professional hypnosis... if they paid money, they'll probably tell you if it didn't work, since they paid for the result.
In amateur hypno, sometimes you get fooled, and that's just the way it is. But we're going on tangents here. If you tell someone to feel something, and they don't, then you've failed. A lot of people can't help but resist direct commands, in spite of themselves.
Eriksonian gives you tools so you CANNOT fail and your subject can't fail either. That's much better :) My favorite way of describing the difference between the two styles is that classical hypnosis is a way to lie so well that the lie becomes true, and Eriksonian hypnosis is a way to tell the truth so well that reality starts to follow what you say. If I say, your eyelids are heavy, that's either true or false if I say: your eyelids are becoming heavy that's initially a lie it may become true but it's basically a lie at first Now, if I say... you can feel the weight of your body.... is that true? False?
<brittney{JLD}> true
<@Venus{SEL}> true
<wifemartine> true
<tomkat> true
<@Mind_Mistress> Is there any way it cannot be true?
<brittney{JLD}> you can always feel your body
<sarah_v> sure, if you're up in the space shuttle orbiting the earth
<wifemartine> self evident
<@miss_rhf_darkstar> lol
<brittney{JLD}> unconscious
<shiro> If you're not paying attention to your body's weight it will fade out of focus
so it's not an absolute, in my opinion
<@Mind_Mistress> and if I say...
"Your eyelids may become heavy"
Is there anyway that this statement can be untrue?
<wifemartine> it is optional
<@Nadine|SYL|> no
<@Venus{SEL}> true again
<@trisha> now that way, you're not just saying they might, but are giving permission as well
<@Mind_Mistress> It's the same darned suggestion :)
Exactly the same
<brittney{JLD}> even if they don't, its true
<@Mind_Mistress> Right,
you can't lose.
I like games where I can't lose :-)
<shiro> Don't we all? xD
<@Venus{SEL}> smiles
<@Mind_Mistress> Right...
* tigerlilly007[MJ] giggles
<gamma_> Rig the odds eh? :P
<wifemartine> turn tables
What is Rapport ?
<@Mind_Mistress> So let me get back to our first official topic, which is Rapport. Now that I've explained the two different styles Anyone know what Rapport is?
<@trisha> back and forth between
<wifemartine> link to hypnotists ?
<@Venus{SEL}> good communications skills between both parties
<gamma_> It's like a conversation
<brittney{JLD}> confidence in the confersation
<@Nadine|SYL|> the conversation between the tist, and the sub
<@Petra> the connection and communication between two or more people
<@nomdefemme762> a connection and comfortable-ness between tist and subject?
<girlyguyAly> apport is a term used to describe, in common terms, that two or more people feel in sync or on the same wavelength because they feel alike.
<tomkat> trust between two people, mutual understanding of topics and feelings
<@Nadine|SYL|> the feeling of 'connectedness', i think, in that convo
<tigerlilly007[MJ]> trust betweem two or more people
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> the interrelationship dynamics
<@Mind_Mistress> Have you ever been with someone... and you really feel in tune with them? You feel comfortable, you find them interesting, and they find you interesting... and you're just enjoying their company, and feeling safe with them.
You talk, and they listen, and really get you...
You feel you can talk about anything, and they won't judge you...
<brittney{JLD}> so it is better to be comfortable with a tist
<@Nadine|SYL|> yes, i have a roommate like that
* miss_rhf_darkstar smiles
<shiro> Trust, then?
<brittney{JLD}> i know someone here like that
<sarah_v> lol
<@Mind_Mistress> and if they ask you to do something, you feel comfortable doing it for them... even if they don't explain why, because you basically trust that they have your best interest at heart. Can you remember a specific time when you felt like that?
How that felt...
<sarah_v> nope
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> of course, and there's a good reason for it
<shiro> Once. but it wasn't exactly like this xD
<tomkat> Yes, I can
<@MissJosephine> smiles yes
<brittney{JLD}> yes
* tigerlilly007[MJ] nods
<jeralyn{JLD}> ;)
<gamma_> Mmm, not sure if I have.
<brittney{JLD}> im sure
* carli nods
<brittney{JLD}> with someone here
<wifemartine> when i met my girl girl friend
<sarah_v> everyone, without fail, has turned out to be untrustworthy, selfish, and judgmental
that has been the one constant I've observed in life
people are worthless untrustworthy shits
[15:47] * sarah_v (Mibbit@5a5b4902.tcso.de83b96b.net.hmsk) has left #hypnotraining
<@miss_rhf_darkstar> often your own defences can prevent it
<@Mind_Mistress> And I'm not saying that you're feeling this way right now with me... and even if you haven't felt that, you probably have a good enough imagination to imagine what that would be like... If you were with someone like that right now...
<@Venus{SEL}> theres no better feeling being so relaxed in someones else company
<@Mind_Mistress> Right Venus...
Now some of you may have noticed what I was doing just now...
I was having you remember that feeling,
and associating it with being with me now
<@Petra> nods
<jeralyn{JLD}> interesting
<@Petra> an anchor
<@Nadine|SYL|> nods
<brittney{JLD}> oh ok
* gamma_ nods
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes, I was using an anchor
<jeralyn{JLD}> NLP
<@Mind_Mistress> That's right
<@Petra> useful things.
<shiro> Something to base your further suggestions on. Yes?
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes.
Now, it was both a demonstration, for you to learn how it's done...
and a way to help you learn this material better
<@trisha> nerdified learning process
<@trisha> :)
* shiro nerds on trisha
<.
<.
<@Mind_Mistress> Because the better the rapport, the better everything works
Without rapport, nothing works
Wwith great rapport, you can do miracles :)
<jeralyn{JLD}> this is so neat
<wifemartine> very clear
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> like sales
<jeralyn{JLD}> wow...words of wisdom
<@Mind_Mistress> In fact, a lot of therapists have nothing other than great skills at creating rapport, to make up for the fact that they have no other therapeutic methods that work whatsoever
<shiro> Therapists also have the advantage of expectations..
<jeralyn{JLD}> it's like a negotiation
<wifemartine> therapy as a kind of hypnosis
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes
<jeralyn{JLD}> hmmmm
<@Mind_Mistress> If you have great rapport, it doesn't matter what you do. It will work. So I wanted to impress upon you all how important it is to chat with subjects first to establish this rapport :)
<jeralyn{JLD}> this is amazingly interesting
<brittney{JLD}> so if you don't like a tist, it's pointless
<shiro> or at least mostly.
<brittney{JLD}> or will it still work
<gamma_> Like you're doing now? :O
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes gamma :)
Liking is not essential, though it helps :)
* jeralyn{JLD} smiles
<@nomdefemme762> does a subject need to like a tist for rapport to develop?
<jeralyn{JLD}> a hostage negotiator can build rapport with a hostage taker, and they may not like one another
<@Mind_Mistress> right
* nomdefemme762 nods
<jeralyn{JLD}> it's the finding a commonality
and capitalizing on that
<@Mind_Mistress> Let me give you some examples of types of rapport.
There's the rapport between best friends
Love and trust and a willingness to go out of your way for someone
Then, there's the rapport created by uniforms
which is based on some kind of authority.
If a police officer tells you to do something... you're likely to comply, within the bounds of what a police officer could reasonably ask. It's a specialized type of rapport
<jeralyn{JLD}> absolutely
<brittney{JLD}> sometimes
<@miss_rhf_darkstar> same with bdsm if i can just chuck that one in
<@nomdefemme762> so a hypnodomme will have some level of authority rapport automatically with subs?
<@miss_rhf_darkstar> a domme to a sub
sorry lol do carry on
<@Mind_Mistress> Similarly, if you're in a hospital waiting room and someone in a white lab coat with a name tag tells you to pee in a cup... you pee in the cup! They lead you to a room and tell you to undress... you undress
<@trisha> very slowly
<@Mind_Mistress> they start poking your body, and you don't complain... This, by the way, is one of the reasons for dressing up and using role play.
You set up a specific type of rapport by playing the role, even if you normally have a different kind of relationship with the person, even if they share your bed. And yes, a reputed hypnotist or dominatrix can expect a certain amount of rapport to occur if the person is suitably impressed by their reputation. :)
* miss_rhf_darkstar nods
<@trisha> some part of you recognizes the costume as being linked to the rapport
<shiro> Expectations are a powerful thing.
<@Mind_Mistress> Right, it's all about expectations
<gamma_> They can shape reality
<@Mind_Mistress> You see a cowboy in a white hat, and one in a black hat. You know who the bad guy is.
<@trisha> white hat
<@Mind_Mistress> Ha ha ha... probably.
<shiro> Pink hat.. I mean white
<@Mind_Mistress> We've gotten used to playing with stereotypes to create surprise in our movies and stories nowadays
[16:00]
<michelle_43> a good example is myself doing housework as a maid for a shemale / ts couple living close by to me
<@Mind_Mistress> A crucial element of rapport is feeling safe enough
<raynesfriend> interesting
<@Mind_Mistress> and another is feeling the person understands you.
Trust is a bonus,
as is liking them.
How to Create Rapport
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, how can you establish rapport with someone?
<@trisha> conversation, and 'feeling them out'
<michelle_43> find a common factor between you
<@Venus{SEL}> using elements that are seen as fun to creating a more relaxed state
<shiro> Conversation, building trust and creating expectations and associations on interaction.
<@Mind_Mistress> That's right. Rapport is built on common ground.
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> appeal to their ego..chances are- it's unbalanced
<wolfie_> so you can't tize someone which you have nothing in common ? :-P
<tomkat> Other people knowing and trusting you already, recommending/referral kind of way would help at well, at least at first
<shiro> There's always something in common, such as the location.
<@Mind_Mistress> Which may be common interests, a common goal, or common views about life, the universe and everything
<shiro> 42?
<@Mind_Mistress> At least, you have a common goal with a subject
Getting them in trance
and if you're part of a subculture, then you have that in common.
<wolfie_> good point
<gamma_> That's true, and speaks back to the roles from earlier
<@Mind_Mistress> If you have a conversation in which you both have fun, then yes, you'll create a more relaxed state
but,
it might also create more excited state.
<@Venus{SEL}> same as flirting?
<@Mind_Mistress> There is no meaningful difference between seduction and hypnosis, as far as I'm concerned
Both aim at creating rappport and inducing an altered state
<shiro> loose friendship works too
<@Venus{SEL}> smiles
* miss_rhf_darkstar appologises for interupting <<> sadely being from the uk and being up at 4 am means i have to go but ty anyway for stopping by Mind_Mistress x goodnight everyone.
<@Mind_Mistress> which leads to the other person making the choices you want.
Get the log darkstar, good night :)
<shiro> Bye, darkstar.
<@Venus{SEL}> ni ni ds :)
* miss_rhf_darkstar (webchat@ee902e8.range86-150.5465e1c8.com.hmsk) Quit ( Quit: Page closed )
<@Mind_Mistress> So if you view creating rapport as a type of seduction... then how would you do it?
<@Venus{SEL}> flattery
<shiro> Appeal to the subject with enticing ideas?
<@MissJosephine> arousal
<wifemartine> appearing as an interesting person
<@Nadine|SYL|> first off, you have to get their attention, somehow
preferably, in a manner that leads them to view you favorably
<@Mind_Mistress> Okay, stop for a moment...
Let's take it from the other side
* trisha reaches over to massage Venus{SEL} gently along her shoulders, close to the collarbone
<@MissJosephine> hand on the thigh perhaps sort of thing?
<@Mind_Mistress> What kinds of actions seduce you, when someone approaches you? What is it that YOU like?
<michelle_43> talk
<@MissJosephine> touch
<@Trixi_Knix{MJ}> eye contact and a smile
<@trisha> motion of their walk, smile, outstretched hand
<@Nadine|SYL|> mmmmmm, not fully sure, yet, as everything has changed
<@Petra> well in the feminization, realm a good way is to set anchors linking pleasure to more female pursuits.
<raynesfriend> confidence and genuine interest
<@Venus{SEL}> feel good about yourself through their actions and words
<shiro> Not counting for me, but what works with a lot of people is interest.
Showing you're interested is a major plus
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> i believe it's as simple as letting someone know you have something they want
<tomkat> knowing they have smiliar interests to my own or understand how those things work with me at some level
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> i might have something want; no similar interests
<gamma_> Feeling loose, I suppose. That we can be loose, carefree
<@Mind_Mistress> I will give you an example of one of the most adept beings at creating rapport:
A dog. When your dog sees you... what does it do?
<wolfie_> you called?
<wolfie_> waggs
<shiro> it wags its tail and tries tackling you?
<@Venus{SEL}> jump up excited
<@Trixi_Knix{MJ}> waggy tail
<@Nadine|SYL|> acts excited to see you
<@tinavixen{JLD}> sniffs your clothes
<@Mind_Mistress> What's the message given by the dog with all these?
<wifemartine> it is friendly
<wolfie_> happiness
<@Trixi_Knix{MJ}> pleased to see you
<shiro> It likes your presence
<@Venus{SEL}> it wants attention
<shiro> alternatively attention
<gamma_> I agree with Venus
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> it associates the scent with memory
<@Mind_Mistress> The dog is honestly happy to see you, and wants to spend time with you.
If you walk into a room... someone turns...
sees you, and their face lights up in joy, looking at you,
how does that feel?
<@Venus{SEL}> wonderful
<@Nadine|SYL|> utterly marvelous, if it is someone that i like/care about
<wifemartine> interested
<gamma_> Good
<shiro> Scary.
<wolfie_> strange
<tomkat> happiess and curiosity
<@Mind_Mistress> Do you want to spend time with them?
<wolfie_> depends if they honest or not
<michelle_43> depends on who the person is
<wifemartine> it seems possible wishable
<@Venus{SEL}> yes you do, because your the one that makes them light up
<@Mind_Mistress> This is the opposite of somoeone needy, which normally makes you want to run away.
<@Mind_Mistress> If they feel good that you're there, you'll feel good that they're there, and want to spend time together
that's instant rapport.
<@Nadine|SYL|> absolutely
* trisha gently kisses Trixi_Knix{MJ}
<@Mind_Mistress> Common ground: you enjoy spending time together.
Now they come up to you...
and a) They tell you all about their exciting life... or
b) they are really interested in you, and a good listener
What do you prefer?
<@Nadine|SYL|> b
<@Venus{SEL}> a
<@trisha> c, both
<wolfie_> depends on the mood
<raynesfriend> bit of both
<tomkat> b at first
<wifemartine> first a then b
<shiro> b
<@Mind_Mistress> First, you want to know they're interested in YOU, that you're not just there to let them monologue,
then you'll be interested in them, probably.
I think that covers rapport pretty well.
Any questions on this?
<@Nadine|SYL|> i think that i got it
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> which is difficult to overcome using the same ole scripts/approaches via a cyber channel, yeah?
<@Nadine|SYL|> who uses scripts, bimbi?
<gamma_> I assume becoming skilled at establishing rapport is more of a practice and learn sort of thing, rather than applying some sort of formula?
<wifemartine> how can we signal that we are listening to the other one ?
<shiro> Replying?
<shiro> Asking more questions?
<@Mind_Mistress> You make relevant comments on what they're saying, and ask them about things they're interested in.
<shiro> about stuff already said
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> consider that i floated an ambiguit; mighte have been "scripted", as well
<@trisha> i have a few troubles in this area, what i might feel is just being happy in someone's presence... is sometimes read as 'neediness'
<@Mind_Mistress> If someone is passionate about something, it's easy, you just ask them about that,
but it has to be honest interest. Even online, faking it just doesn't work as well.
<wifemartine> this is what we did when my former husband told us he was intersted in feminization
<@Mind_Mistress> what do you mean wifemartine?
<wifemartine> well Mind Mistress, girly, her name now, just said from times to times he was inetersted in feminization
<@Mind_Mistress> Then you showed interest, and she opened up?
<wifemartine> yes, exactly Mind Mistress, we did show interest and the girl came out little by little
<@Mind_Mistress> and THAT is creating rapport!
Well done
! "Opening up to someone" is another way to say that you're creating rapport.
* dori- watches
How to Use Rapport : Pacing and Leading
<@Mind_Mistress> All right, I think we can move onto the next topic
which is what to do once you have rapport.
<@Petra> :)
<@Mind_Mistress> We call it Pacing and Leading
in NLP
<wifemartine> better not say :)
<@Mind_Mistress> But really, it's just a continuation and deepening of rapport.
Pacing means that you are validating a person's experience of reality.
Either you're agreeing with them
or you're telling them things that HAVE to be true.
<shiro> The world is round. apples can be sour, etc.
<@Mind_Mistress> ...about their personal sensory experience of the world.
Pacing has to be done in terms of the 5 senses,
if you want to induce trance.
Saying "the sky is up"
does not really induce trance.
It's too abstract,
and abstract statements are not terribly good for deepening trance.
<@trisha> like rubber chipmunks in jello
Pacing and Leading Group Exercise
<@Mind_Mistress> They're more useful for giving a direction to the trance than deepening. Okay, so exercise time... let's assume I'm at the beach... I would like you to give me statements that HAVE to be true about my sensory experience, and I'll give you an example "You can feel your breathing". Go ahead (the beach is a common theme in trance inductions).
<wifemartine> feeling warm, aren't you ?
<michelle_43> you can see the sand
<wolfie_> wolfie at the beach interesting though
<shiro> there is a low hum from the computer's fan
<@Venus{SEL}> you can feel the sun's radiant kiss caressing your naked shoulders, making you sink softly
<@tinavixen{JLD}> you can hear the sound of waves breaking on the shore
<@trisha> there are people nearby, within reach of sound, playing, and talking, but you should be able to hear the sursuruss of the waves as you focus towards them, basking in the warmth of the sunlight
<gamma_> you can taste the salt in the air
and feel the wind on your face, the sand warm beneath your toes
<shiro> a pensive feeling hangs in the air as you await the next reply?
<michelle_43> walking along the beach, barefoot, you can feel the sand through your toes as you wander
<@Nadine|SYL|> you can feel the moisture, walking along the beach, below the tide marks
<@MissJosephine> nods
<@trisha> an oversized beachball bounces by, snagging your attention for a brief second, leading your eye towards a soft, rounded figure, plumpish, but pretty
<@MissJosephine> warm sun on your face, wind in your hair
<@Mind_Mistress> Okay, thank you :)
<@nomdefemme762> would they have to be statements? can you ask questions, like "can you imagine the laughter of children playing?"
Try out this exercise yourself before looking at the answers below
(this text box doesn't send anything, it's just for you to practice with)
The Answers
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, I will tell you what I'm imagining, and notice what is true of your statements: I'm imagining being at a beach, on the edge of a lake, on a cold November night, wearing my coat and boots.
* nomdefemme762 smiles
<@Mind_Mistress> LOL
<@Nadine|SYL|> the statement that you are imagining is the only one that has! to be true
<wifemartine> siberrria
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, the point of this isn't to make fun of you all... it's to help you realize that it's very easy to make statements that don't work for a person
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@Mind_Mistress> Whenever you say something that doesn't match the subject's experience, they adjust, but it brings them a bit out of trance
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> however, the faculty of imagination that is the crux here requires development; most assume that they simply have an imagination and that it might be more well-developed by simply acting zany
<@tinavixen{JLD}> a movie theater is better
<shiro> would sensory touch rather than a whole setting work?
<gamma_> So, is the answer then setting the scene for them before we begin ("Imagine yourself....")?
<@Mind_Mistress> yes gamma. So either you have to be specific enough in your opening statement, or you have to be vague enough in your induction to include all possibilities.
BAD: "Imagine you're on the beach"
GOOD: "Imagine it's a warm sunny day, not too hot or cool, and you're wearing a swimsuit at the beach, walking in the sand barefoot"
Notice the order of these statements...
<wifemartine> five senses
<wifemartine> getting closer and closer to the subject ?
<@Mind_Mistress> I start with the weather, that sets the scene... then the place... then you...
<@Nadine|SYL|> hmmmmmmmm, interesting........ you are establishing that they feel quite comfortable, and also involving their sense of touch
<@trisha> so maybe, 'could you imagine for me, the experience, and describe it in a way that you enjoy?' would that be a good way to assist in creating the proper rapport?
<@Mind_Mistress> trisha, that's not bad, but it makes the subject do all the work for you.
You can give them choices later on, but setting the scene should make the work easier for them, not force them to choose a setting and waffle between options.
<@trisha> sorry, i was over-generalizing with my statement, as i type very slow
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, that's what I suggest for opening statements... make it so that whatever you say next can't contradict what they might have imagined with your first sentence. :)
<wifemartine> a kind of movie scenario
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, can anyone give me sensory statements about what I see, hear, feel, smell or taste, with the unspecific version of "you're at the beach" which HAVE to be true?
<wifemartine> feeling the sun on my skin
<@Mind_Mistress> it's night
<michelle_43> you can hear the sound of waves gently lapping the shore
<wifemartine> waves echoing in rythm
<@Mind_Mistress> it's a small lake
<@trisha> if you can, think about the sounds of the waves, listen for them in your mind
<@Nadine|SYL|> feeling the air against your skin
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes Nadine, I can feel the air against my skin :)
<@nomdefemme762> there's water nearby
<@Mind_Mistress> "There's water nearby" is not sensory
<@nomdefemme762> oops, oh yes
<@tinavixen{JLD}> you are barefoot and can feel the soft sand
<@Venus{SEL}> the moons soft glint from the lake dazzles your eyes
<@Mind_Mistress> Venus, you don't know that it's night.
<shiro> you can see the water washing up against the cliff somewhere in the distance, the waves gently splashing, the wind makes a gentle whistle as it whips by. The sand is warm on your feet, pleasantly so.
<@Mind_Mistress> shiro, you're just making it up :P
<shiro> I know :3
Aren't I the prime example of fudging the cake?
:3
<wifemartine> water moisture feels cool on your skin
<gamma_> "you can feel the moisture in the air"
<@Mind_Mistress> I can feel moisture on my skin
<@trisha> can you hear fish, flopping in the water?
<@Mind_Mistress> tinavixen: "if you're barefoot, you can feel the soft sand" would work
okay.
<@MissJosephine> the sun warming your back
<@trisha> it's evening
<@Mind_Mistress> I'm under a parasol :)
<@Venus{SEL}> smiles
<shiro> the wind might feel a little cool when it blows past
<@Mind_Mistress> good, shiro,
"You can see the water nearby"
<wifemartine> air is fresh as you breath it into your nose
<michelle_43> what if it's night time, can you really?
<shiro> the sun might sting a little in your eyes, should you look around
if there is sun
<@Mind_Mistress> so let me tell you some... and if you can find a way (reasonably) to say it's not true, say so please :)
<@Mind_Mistress> "The air is fresh"
<shiro> of course
<@Mind_Mistress> "and you can see the light glinting on the surface of the water"
<@Nadine|SYL|> what if it is pitch dark out, MM?
<@Mind_Mistress> Unless it's absolute darkness, there will be some glinting
<@Nadine|SYL|> k
<@trisha> a small splash in the distance, as if a fish, you might hear, or see the ripples from
<@tinavixen{JLD}> you can't see the water if your back is to it
<shiro> the gentle trickle of water can reach your ears as the lake splashes against the sand, Nadine :P
if you can't see
you can hear
if you can't hear, you can feel
Then you could taste stale air.
<@Nadine|SYL|> either that, or you've not been brushing your teeth after you have been with someone, and chewing on their ear, shiro :P
<shiro> xD
I do that, nadine.
I do that.
* shiro nibbles an ear
<carli> hear crickets chirping in distance
<@Mind_Mistress> I didn't say you DID see the water, only that you CAN see the water :)
"you can smell the moisture in the air"
which is true except if it's frozen over
and even then...
"You can feel the temperature of the air on your skin"
"You can hear the sounds of the place"
"You can feel the clothing against your skin, if you're wearing any"
"You can feel the weight of your body"
"as it presses down into the sand" beach implies sand, as opposed to a shore
"You can reach down and touch the sand..."
"and feel it run through your fingers..."
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<shiro> you can feel the sand giving way as you sink into it?
<@Mind_Mistress> good shiro
<shiro> I try :)
<@trisha> you can sense something relaxing, calming about this beach, and allow yourself to become a part of it, should you choose
<@Mind_Mistress> Not sensory, trisha
That's not pacing, that's leading
<wifemartine> warm sand on your skin
<@trisha> to me, an emotional thing like relaxation is sensory
<@Mind_Mistress> To you, but not everyone
<@Mind_Mistress> Okay, so that should be enough on this topic I think :))
Just try to make sure that what you're saying has to be true, and that it's something they feel, see, hear, can touch, taste, or smell Now we get to the Leading
* MzSharlene (MzSharlene@5c12d3ac.biz.c7b28ff4.com.hmsk) has joined #hypnotraining
<wifemartine> martine used something similar to help girly believe she had female body parts, with feeling good
<@Mind_Mistress> Not sure what you mean
The idea is that you Pace - Pace - Pace - Lead
<wifemartine> she told girly that her breasts and all other parts feel good, as for women
<@Mind_Mistress>
Pace: "You can feel the temperature of the air against your skin"
Pace: "You can see the water nearby, glinting in the light"
Pace: "You can feel your breathing"
LEAD: "And you can start relaxing a little more with every breath"
<@Petra> nods
<wifemartine> that is very clear
<@Mind_Mistress> This is actually used as a sell technique, by the way...
PACE: "You want a car that's safe"
PACE: "and you want to be comfortable in your car every time you drive"
PACE: "and you want one that looks good"
LEAD:
"And this car right here is everything you want, safe, comfortable, and it looks great"
<shiro> "So you want this one"
<@nomdefemme762> lol
<@Mind_Mistress> :)
<gamma_> Car salemen are jedi -__-
<wifemartine> pace pace lead
<@Petra> there was an early 20th century psychologist who worked in advertising that caused Americans to think they needed eggs and bacon for breakfast.
He did the same thing
<shiro> These are not the droids you are looking for, gamma?
[17:00]
<gamma_> No shiro, these are not the affordable cars I'm looking for.
<@Nadine|SYL|> lol
<@Mind_Mistress> The pattern is: True, True, True, maybe true.
But after agreeing three times with what is said, you're more likely to keep agreeing.
it's a limited form of rapport as well
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@tinavixen{JLD}> so far i am agreeing with everything you've said Mind_Mistress :)
<gamma_> Like the foot in the door technique?
<wifemartine> it all gives us much help for femming girly further Mind Mistress
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, here's a riddle...
why doesn't the salesman get people into trance by using that technique?
<@Nadine|SYL|> they are not trying for that, but to get them to buy the car that they are showing them
<@MissJosephine> their environment?
<wifemartine> because he is relating to the existing car ?
<tomkat> no rapport, no trust, people don't like spending their money
<shiro> they don't know what they're really doing?
<@Nadine|SYL|> nor do they continue to deepen the subject's 'altered state', i suspect
<wifemartine> nobody trusts salesmen
<@nomdefemme762> because conversational hypnosis doesn't require trance?
declarative and directive
<@Mind_Mistress> Anyone remember what I said those statements had to be, to induce trance?
<@Nadine|SYL|> 'true', correct?
<michelle_43> had to be true
<wifemartine> true and five senses
* Mind_Mistress gives wifemartine a cookie
<wifemartine> thank you Mind Mistress
<@Mind_Mistress> The statements have to be sensory based to induce trance. Feel, see, touch, hear, smell, taste That's what creates trance
<@Nadine|SYL|> ah....... thats right, it also has to involve the senses
<gamma_> I suppose there's also a somewhat ethical and perceptual question, if it was percieved that they were taking your free will
<@Mind_Mistress> If you don't use the senses, you just create agreement
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@tomkat> Thank you for the lesson so far Mind_Mistress, must be going here, have a good evening everyone *waves*
Pacing with Sensory Statements
<@Mind_Mistress> Let me give an example that isn't sensory... "You are probably aware that you are learning... and this learning is something that will be useful to you in the future if you do hypnosis..."
"whether you choose to use it or not, it's something you have gained by this seminar today..."
"and you are perhaps curious about what else you can learn"
"that will be of immense benefit to you in enjoying hypnosis"
Okay, so what do you notice about your state of mind, going through these non-sensory statements?
<wifemartine> this is wonderfully helpful Mind Mistress
<wifemartine> reasoning about them as they are being made
<@trisha> they're something i can agree to, or disagree to,
<@Mind_Mistress> It was all very abstract and intellectual, yes
<@Nadine|SYL|> 3 true statements, plus, it is suggesting that you are going to enjoy hypnosis
<michelle_43> it sort of seems less attentive to your words, it's taking what you say as a 'given'
whereas sensory seems to stimulate the mind
<@Mind_Mistress> trisha, what statement could be untrue?
<@trisha> it presumes the person is learning in order to hypnotize others
<@Venus{SEL}> you're selling the idea you'll like what you'll learn by creating intrigue in where how things could develop
<@Nadine|SYL|> that is also true, Venus
<@Mind_Mistress> trisha, notice I use "if", so it's true whether you use it or not
<wifemartine> the last questioning, because we ourselves do not know yet
<shiro> It's only based upon questions, so you may agree, but it doesn't give you a sensory stimulation of wellbeing?
<@trisha> will knowing more about how it works really make it more enjoyable to be the subject though?
<gamma_> Even if we choose not to learn anything from here, it's implied that it will still help us enjoy hypnosis
<@Mind_Mistress> It may make you dreamy or pensive, but it won't put you in trance
<@Nadine|SYL|> this is true, Linda
but, as i said, it is also suggesting that you are going to enjoy learning more and more about hypnosis, am i corrct?
<@tinavixen{JLD}> there are a lot of choices in your statements, Mind_Mistress (probably, if, whether, perhaps)
<@Mind_Mistress> This type of fluff IS often used in Eriksonian hypnosis, just not to deepen the trance.
It can be used to create rapport at first, and later to lead the person's thinking in directions you want. Indeed, it is still hypnotic language. Just not as useful for the trance induction.
And I did use the Pace Pace Pace Lead
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@Nadine|SYL|> i noticed
<@Mind_Mistress> Very good :) Now to wrap up this section of the training... I want you to know there's a progression to this as the person goes deeper into trance...
Pace Pace Pace Lead
Pace Pace Pace Lead
Pace Pace Lead Lead
Pace Pace Lead Lead
Pace Lead Lead Lead
Pace Lead Lead Lead
You start to lead more and more... but only when you're sure the person is following your lead.
<@nomdefemme762> ahh
<@trisha> like a mental dance
<@Mind_Mistress> Yes, it's very much like a dance... which is another form of seduction.
<@trisha> maybe that's why i have such trouble staying under. i've got 3 left feet
<@Mind_Mistress> So you can think of hypnosis as a dance happening between the hypnotist and subject, and the most important part of dancing is keeping the same rhythm as your partner.
<@MissJosephine> rythym?
<@Mind_Mistress> That's right, MissJosephine :)
<@MissJosephine> ty :)
<wifemartine> dance
<gamma_> Is the 3-1 ratio important, or just a guideline? I would presume the latter
<@Mind_Mistress> it's a guideline You pace a lot and lead a little... and progressively lead more but you still keep pacing... By the way, that is the ultimate pace.
<@Petra> :)
We Never Make Mistakes
<@Mind_Mistress> MissJosephine, would you please think of a number from 1 to 5 ?
<@Mind_Mistress> Got it?
<@MissJosephine> 3
<@Mind_Mistress> That's right!
<@Mind_Mistress> Very good!
<@Mind_Mistress> How did it feel when I said: "That's right" ?
<@MissJosephine> fab :)
<@Petra> pleasant
<@Mind_Mistress> That's right :D
<@Nadine|SYL|> lol
<@Mind_Mistress> It's a joke among Eriksonian hypnotists, actually...
<@trisha> hold out your left hand...
that's right
<@Mind_Mistress> "That's right" is the universal pace
* nomdefemme762 giggles
<@MissJosephine> and again ty
<@Mind_Mistress> No matter what you did or feel, I'm validating it
which reinforces it
and improves rapport
and deepens the trance
<@MissJosephine> nods
<@Nadine|SYL|> nods
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, even if the person messes up...
it doesn't matter...
because they don't know what you intended,
so you just validate that they did right,
and pretend that what you actually wanted is just the next step
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> appealing to the unbalanced ego, which loves it
<@Mind_Mistress> So now, would you please think of a number and not tell me what it is MissJosephine?
<wifemartine> leading
<@MissJosephine> yes done
<@Mind_Mistress> Very good...
You're doing this perfectly...
<@MissJosephine> ty
<@Mind_Mistress> and you are doing an amazing job of helping me explain this point...
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> like coaching; teaching
<@Mind_Mistress> which I'm pretty sure many here will find useful...
:)
<@MissJosephine> i can feel it yes
<@Nadine|SYL|> very useful, i think, i certainly do
<@Mind_Mistress> Notice what I just said is pure fluff.
It doesn't really convey any information,
but it makes everyone feel good, and improves rapport.
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@MissJosephine> nods
<@Mind_Mistress> Now, when I asked to think of a number the first time, I actually intended for it not to be said...
<@MissJosephine> oh
<@Mind_Mistress> Then she said it...
<gamma_> :P
<@Mind_Mistress> I could have said "No, that's wrong, you weren't supposed to say it".
<shiro> x3
<@Mind_Mistress> which would have made us both feel bad, and reduced rapport
But, only I knew what I meant...
so I said, "That's right"
<@MissJosephine> nods
<@nomdefemme762> clever
<@Mind_Mistress> and then I went on with "And now, the next thing I'd like you to do...".
Because when you think about it... it really doesn't matter :)
My goal is to create trance, not to have her pick a number
<@MissJosephine> nod nods
<@Mind_Mistress> You have to keep the goal in mind.
The steps are just steps
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@Mind_Mistress> if the person goes by another path... well, it's a dance. Don't reprimand them, follow them, and then guide them from there. Keep pacing their experience, and leading when appropriate.
Milton Erikson himself had a core rule, which he called "Utilization". Basically, he meant that no matter what the subject gave you, you should use it.
If the doorbell rings... then focus on how nice it is to be able to relax after sitting back down... now that the interruption is out of the way... and how soothing the silence is
If the person gets a foot cramp... Have them notice how relaxed the rest of their body is compared to the cramp.
Pace their experience, no matter what they give you, and use it to deepen the trance :)
That's the creative part, dealing with the unexpected, and it's fun to find a clever way to make a distraction into an advantage
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> it's like turning a mistake (e.g. playing a musical instrument) into something better.
<@Mind_Mistress> Right.
They don't know where you were going
so just act like... it's part of the show!!
Hypnotic Utilization Example
<@trisha> so, if i say i picture my mind as a labrynth with moving walls, constantly shifting...
<@Mind_Mistress> Then I'll use that.
Anyone want to take a stab at the labyrinth?
<@Nadine|SYL|> ok, i can try
<shiro> I need to go do stuff.. I'll be in the regular chat. bye ^^;
<@Nadine|SYL|> notice how it constantly changes
in all sorts of ways
as you wander through it,
feeling so intrigued
by the way that it does, this
wondering what you might find next...
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> it is much like you and me- no beginning; no ending
<@Nadine|SYL|> how was that?
<@Mind_Mistress> That was pretty good Nadine :)
Well done!
I'll take a stab at it...
"Now as you look inward at the labyrinth of your mind..."
"You may feel it's a bit too much to take in at once..."
"so as you take a breath... as deep as you like..."
"and let it go..."
"you may start to notice... that there's a rhythm to the shifting..."
"and you can start to feel that there's a pattern... to the shifting..."
"Feeling how it's constantly shifting... inside of you..."
* trisha wasn't really expecting to be part of the show, but it feels very nice
<@Mind_Mistress>
"and you may wonder, if you can grasp that pattern..."
"and I don't know... how relaxed you need to be..."
"to truly feel the rhythm of the shifting walls now..."
"and how slow and deep your breathing will get..."
"once you let the walls shift you into a pleasantly relaxing state..."
"but I do know that when you do get so relaxed now..."
"that you can almost predict the waves of shifting walls.."
"relaxing you further into trance with every breath..."
"I imagine it's going to feel really good to let go now"
:)
<@MissJosephine> lovely
<@Nadine|SYL|> ouuuhhh, lovely!
<@Mind_Mistress> Notice the mix of fluff and sensory statements
<@nomdefemme762> yum
<@trisha> i like that touch, i can feel it's effectiveness, from the point of 'let the walls'
<wifemartine> leading is at the end and seems logical
<@Nadine|SYL|> trisha and i have worked together before, but you far outdid anything that i ever did with her, Linda
<@trisha> and i'm truly sorry about that, Nadine|SYL|
<@Nadine|SYL|> 'tis ok, hun, i am still learning, and Linda is far more skilled and experienced then I
<@Mind_Mistress> Notice that even with the abstract statements, I still use concrete terms: "Look inward","Take in", "Grasp", "shifting inside you"
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@Mind_Mistress> You know...
I think there's little quite as exciting for me...
as meeting someone who's very good...
at something I love to do...
and feeling that I can learn from them...
to do what I do even better...
and enjoy it even more.
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@Mind_Mistress> :)
* nomdefemme762 smiles
<@MissJosephine> very nice
<@trisha> i feel sometimes that others are 'scared' to try to trance me, and other times like they feel it would be a waste of their time
<@Nadine|SYL|> i've never been 'scared' to do that, trisha, i had other reasons not to do so, as you know
<wifemartine> thank you so much Mind Mistress, you gave us methods
<@Mind_Mistress> You can do an entire induction, speaking only of yourself. It's used in sales as well.
<@Nadine|SYL|> i see, and it is all quite interesting
<@Mind_Mistress> It's very non-directive. I'm talking about myself... in such a way that it just so happens that you can relate to it
* Nadine|SYL| nods
<@Mind_Mistress> I love this stuff :D
<@MissJosephine> fabulous trully Mind Mistress ty
<@Mind_Mistress> Well, I think we're done for today
<bimbi_smokes{KJLD}_> i prefer to include the occult aspects
<@Venus{SEL}> awww I hope theres going to be more days
<wifemartine> it was great Mind Mistress
<@Petra> :)
<gamma_> It is very intersting, and I study (well, hope to) human communication. Thanks for this first session Mistress
<@Petra> lots to absorb
<michelle_43> thank you. that was so insightful
<@Mind_Mistress> Next time, we'll be looking at the various words used in trance, and exactly how they're used in progressing through an induction.
<@Nadine|SYL|> ty Linda
<carli> ty Mind_Mistress has been an interesting lesson
<@Trixi_Knix{MJ}> thank you for sharing your time Mind_Mistress, most interesting and enjoyable
<@Mind_Mistress> You're most welcome Trixi
* Venus{SEL} smiles. Ty Linda its been really interesting and a mind opener
<@Katie{JLD}> ty, Mind_Mistress
<@trisha> thank you very much for showing me these things, Mind_Mistress
<@nomdefemme762> thank you for the opportunity to learn
<@Mind_Mistress> So, the only way to make this knowledge into skill, is to take one chunk of it, and choose to practice it
<@tinavixen{JLD}> thank you for all your time and sharing your knowledge with us, Mind_Mistress :)
<@Mind_Mistress> I believe I'm free next Sunday 3pm EST, but I'll post on the site to confirm
<@Nadine|SYL|> ty Linda
[17:52]
<@Petra> excellent :)
